Jack Sawyer, Craig Krenzel and Ohio State football’s greatest moment: Buckeye Talk podcast

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COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Which former Ohio State football player best exemplifies what it means to be a Buckeye?

That’s what we’ll spend the next week trying to figure out with the help of the Buckeye Talk Subtext subscribers. Over 150 people were considered but only 32 could make the official bracket as Stephen Means, Stefan Krajisnik and Andrew Gillis discuss some of the greatest players in history. But this isn’t about just being the best. It’s about telling the story of a program and who we can’t tell that story without.

That mission starts today with the first half of Round 1.

Thanks for listening to Buckeye Talk and sign up to get text messages from experts Stephen Means, Stefan Krajisnik and Andrew Gillis at 614-350-3315. Get the insider analysis, have your voice heard on the Buckeye Talk podcast and connect with the best Buckeye community out there.

Read the automated transcript of today’s podcast below. Because it’s a computer-generated transcript, it may contain errors and misspellings.

Stephen Means (00:07.437)

Welcome back to Buckeye Talk. I’m Stephen Means, that’s final Christ, and that is Andrew Gillis. It’s bracket week. Obviously, we started with selection Monday yesterday, and now it’s time to get into the actual who is the greatest Buckeye bracket. This is 32 people in our bracket. We revealed who those people were last, well, no, on Monday. Today is Tuesday. But our official bracket, Archie Griffin, the number one overall seed. He is also the number one overall.

the number one seed in the Jim Trestle region. The number two overall seed is Troy Smith, and he heads up our Ryan Day region. The number three overall seed is Eddie George, and he is heading up our Paul Brown region. And then Chris Spielman rounds out our top four seeds. He’s the number four overall seed, and he is headlining the Urban Meyer region of this bracket.

We named the four regions after the four national championship head coaches. And then we named the entire bracket after the national championship winning head coach. And that’s Woody Hayes is the only coach in the house in history with multiple national titles. That’s what Ryan Day will be trying to chase going forward after winning in 2024. So we’re going to run through these. We are texters have been voting really since the weekend, six one four three five, three, three one five, two week free trial three 99 after that.

Andrew and Stefan and I are gonna vote today, though Stefan said he’d already voted because he is a good and loyal texture, unlike somebody else on this pod. Well, somebody else’s. I haven’t voted either, but I voted.

Andrew Gillis (01:38.062)

Yeah, was gonna say, whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa

Stephen Means (01:42.903)

Yeah, but that’s like saying that that’s like saying shame on Mike Breen for not shooting a layup during the basketball game because he’s calling the game. He’s got a different job. You know, I’m the organizer. Yeah. It is the same bang.

Andrew Gillis (01:53.262)

I think that’s the same.

Stephen Means (01:59.397)

Because he does the bang. no, that’s what Mike Breen, he does the bang when people make three.

Stefan Krajisnik (02:00.219)

Boom.

Stefan Krajisnik (02:04.219)

Yes, Ohio State does the boom.

Stephen Means (02:06.595)

When people get commits, I think both of us were pretty corny in that moment, but it’s fine. You live and you learn. So we’re going to run through these. And I do think as the vote, the voting is starting to come in and there’s obviously been a couple of places where it’s been pretty overwhelming. So I don’t think we need to spend five hours talking about all 32, one of these guys, but we will over the next couple of days, start to break down more more matchups. think as we get deeper into the bracket, Stefan.

Stefan Krajisnik (02:07.857)

There you go.

Stefan Krajisnik (02:12.133)

Live and you’ll learn.

Stephen Means (02:34.245)

But let’s start in our Jim Trestle region. And do you think there is much of a competition with Archie Griffin, the running back two time Heisman Trophy winner? He was here from 1972 to 1975 and Vic Janowitz, a running back from 1949 to 1951. Is there much of a, our textures right now, I’ll tell you at the time we’re sitting down to record this pod, voting is still open. 98 % of our textures have voted for Archie Griffin.

98%. Is that on brand with all due respect to Vic Janowitz and what he was as a Buckeye? Is this the ultimate NCAA March Madness, the number one overall seed versus the lowest seed in the bracket? And this is just kind of like a tuneup game for a guy that we probably think is the heaviest favorite to at least get to the final.

Stefan Krajisnik (03:27.877)

Yeah, I think that’s probably pretty safe to say. And there’s a reason this guy’s the number one overall seed and why he’s kind of the first name that comes to lot of minds when you talk about greatest Buckeye. mean, the stats, the accolades, the on-field success, team accomplishments, everything that this category is about is pretty much everything Archie Griffin has accomplished. And there’s also the Buckeye aura thing that we keep talking about.

It’s very rare that there’s like a Ohio State hype video that doesn’t have Archie Griffin narrating some part of it or taking part in something. He’s still obviously so present in Ohio State, the statue outside Ohio Stadium in the Northward Tundra. Like this guy is Ohio State through and through and it’s going to be hard for and I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a second or third round matchup that he still gets 90 plus percent of the vote, let alone a first round matchup. So Archie Griffin is as good as advertised.

from the preseason poll.

Stephen Means (04:24.133)

Yeah, Andrew any case for number 32 overall see to maybe pull upset here

Andrew Gillis (04:32.622)

Not a shot. I want to be kind to Vic for a second, because one, he’s a college football Hall of Famer. But two, we joked on the previous pod about like, you know, here was somebody who played running back, and he played right guard. And he played middle linebacker. And he was also the punter. It’s like why you see, you know, all these like the guys who have like the points records like in some places like where it’s like pro or college.

Stephen Means (04:37.541)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Gillis (05:02.478)

They’re like the running back from 1950 because they would score the touchdown and then kick the extra point. And then I made the joke that, oh yeah, and then you look it up and it was, they played second base for the baseball team. Vic Janowitz has a pro football reference page and a baseball reference page. He played for the Pittsburgh Pirates as well as long and had a professional career with the Washington Redskins in 1954 and 1955.

So I don’t know, good for him. I think he had a great career. I think he was a great Buckeye, unanimous All-American, Heisman. he...

I mean, look, he won the Heisman Trophy. Maybe you could argue he shouldn’t have been 32nd. but this is just a, just a tough draw, man. It’s like one of those things where you have the NCAA tournament start and you’re like, you know what? Look at you, Lehigh. You had a great year. You had a wonderful year, but you’re not Kentucky. Like, like RG Griffin is just RG Griffin is the moment.

Stephen Means (05:50.756)

Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (06:13.297)

example that example you say you caught or something

Andrew Gillis (06:15.094)

That’s a fair point. Duke, Archie Griffin is just the mammoth of all mammoths and the face of the program for many, many, many, many generations of people. So it was just a tough draw for him. But I mean, look, he was amazing. And I think he does deserve some flowers.

Stephen Means (06:37.935)

He’s a Heisman Trophy winner and unfortunately his draw was against a guy who’s done what he’s done twice. But as you mentioned, Andrew Heisman Trophy winner, UPI player of the year, sport, SN player, the unanimous All-American in 1950. He was the second team All-American in 1951. He won the Chicago Tribune Silver Football Award in 1950, two time first team All-Big Ten. And his number 31 is retired and also had a pretty quality.

Andrew Gillis (06:42.027)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (07:04.599)

NFL career and baseball career. But yet 98 % so far of our voters have picked Archie Griffin over Vic Tandovitz as the voting continues to remain. Let’s move on with the Jim Trestle region. Ezekiel Elliott, most known for his run, his three game run in the 2014 college football playoff where he ran through the defenses of Wisconsin, Alabama and Oregon on Ohio State’s way to winning the first Niagara College football playoff national championship.

and second national championship of the new millennium. He’s going up against Andy Katzenmoyer who was a linebacker from 1996 to 1998. Stefan, did you have any, who’d you pick? And was it a difficult thing to pick? Ezekiel Elliott versus Andy Katzenmoyer.

Stefan Krajisnik (07:55.717)

Yeah, it was definitely tougher than. The last one we just did. I went back and forth on it a little bit. Ultimately, I think one thing that Zeke has that’s going to be hard to beat and maybe he goes on a bit of a run is he has that memorable moment, right? The play that’s got its own title kind of like the scooping Sawyer like holy Buckeye. So that that that was a big thing for me is he kind of had that moment. And had that run and had that on field success in the accolades that.

I gave him the edge here. We’ve talked about Katzenberg a lot in the past. He came up a lot in the 24 season just because of different stats and things like that that some of the defensive guys were going after.

Stephen Means (08:37.123)

Yeah. Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (08:39.877)

So I don’t want to diminish how good he was and he’s another guy where it’s like this This is the thing like we talked about how good some guys left off the list were like there’s some dudes that are gonna be ranked 25 that would be like number two and a lot of programs and Ultimately, I think the the play is kind of what’s gonna help Zeke here and give him a bit of a run I mean, he was just so dominant. I think the NFL dominance probably lingers a little bit for some people right like early parts of Zeke his NFL career was so dominant to in the way he represented Ohio State I think matters

to some extent, at least kind of in that Bokai aura category. I think that helps him out a bit. So I went with Zeke here, but I did go back and forth on it a little bit.

Stephen Means (09:18.797)

is a 825 matchup. And Andy Katzenmoyer as a college football player in 1997, he won the Buckets award and the Jack Lambert trophy. He was a Consensus All-American. He was a second team All-American in 1996. He was a three-time first team All-Big Ten selection and was a Big Ten co-freshman of the year in 1996. He’s also in Ohio State’s Hall of Fame and was part of their All-Century team when they put that out not too long ago.

Andrew, I think the Ezekiel Elliott, Andy Katz, a more case is a prime example of why this is a greatest Buckeye conversation versus a greatest player, because I think Andy Katz, a more might have a stronger case if this was just the best player conversation, because that accolades list is quite honestly longer than what Ezekiel Elliott’s was his time as an Ohio State football player.

from 1996 to 1998, he had more individual accolades. And part of that is cause he was awesome in the nineties and Ezekiel Elliott was playing 14 that had a lot of different moving pieces. One of the, in 2015, they kind of mishandled some of those weapons at times. But as Stefan mentioned, the run against Alabama, the three game run in general for Ezekiel Elliott, the fact that he had the Eddie George fashion where he had his

You know, Jersey flipped up so you could see his abs and then, and then, and then college football said, yeah, you can’t do that anymore. But college football 25 doesn’t care. They let you do it in that game though. It looks a little ugly, but still it’s the entire piece of the puzzle. When we’re talking about accolades and stats, team success, memorable moments, Michigan success slash failure and overall Buckeye aura. I think accolades, I think I would give the, the edge to Andy Katzenmoyer.

But when you’re talking about team success, one of them won a national championship. One of them’s got the memorable moment. One of them never lost to Michigan. And then the overall aura of what you think about when you think about Zeke, I think that’s where Zeke starts to really pull away. And it’s almost like to use an NCAA basketball reference again, this was a really good first half. And then about the 12 minute mark of the second half, Zeke went on a run and kind of put the game away.

Andrew Gillis (11:41.132)

This was hard. If you would ask me when we did the previous pod where like if there was anybody that I thought was maybe ranked a little bit lower than they should have, I would have said Andy Katzenmoyer. Obviously I went on my Michael Jenkins should be in this bracket rant, but there wasn’t really time for anything else. But I think Katzenmoyer was the guy that you probably should have had higher. Look, basically this boils down to

Do you think, in my opinion, it’s do you think Ezekiel Elliot’s run against Alabama is enough? Do you think that moment is enough? Because like you said, the accolades and the stats and the history of Katzenmoyer, it’s objectively better.

and then like it’s important to, it’s important to remember here, like the internet is not what it was. Or like back in, you know, the nineties when he was playing and you know, the, hype is not what it was. This was a kid that played at Westerville south. Like this was a local kid who was one of the best players in the country. he won the national defensive player of the year in his senior high school.

Stephen Means (12:44.485)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Gillis (13:03.736)

Go just Google like for anybody that doesn’t know. I’m sure a lot of people do Google Andy Katzenmoyer visor and you will just see the greatest linebacker aesthetic that has ever like been bestowed upon college football. So. The or like the so like for as much as you’re talking about like the Zeke and OE ran with the jersey up like Katzenmoyer had just as much if not more.

of kind of that like look with the visor and the big shoulder pads.

I picked Katzenmoyer. I picked Katzenmoyer, man. Like, I think for as much as we talk about this being a benefit of circumstance for like Jack Sawyer and Emeka Ibuca, Ezekiel Elliott was also a benefit of circumstance as well that Andy Katzenmoyer maybe wasn’t because if the four-team playoff started a year later, Ohio State doesn’t go on that run and he doesn’t get that moment.

Stephen Means (13:38.149)

Ooooo

Andrew Gillis (14:05.526)

Like it’s important to remember, and I’m not trying to drag up old history. There were a lot of people in going into that college football playoff who said Ohio State shouldn’t be in the playoff. Ohio State should not make it because there was that debate at the TCU Baylor in Ohio State. So Ohio State maybe had an argument to not be in the playoff in that 14 playoff. So if we’re going to give the benefit of the doubt, like, well, the guys last year’s team, Jack, Ameka, all of them, they had an opportunity.

Well, Zeke had an opportunity that nobody else to that point in college football history had ever had before. And they were the four seed. So I picked Katzenmoyer. I think Katzenmoyer had a better career. I think he is remembered a little bit differently because they did not beat Michigan. And of course, that’s a part of this. Of course, that’s part of this. But he was on some of the best Ohio State football teams of all time. And if I have this right, nobody’s he’s the last player to wear 45. So so yeah.

Stephen Means (15:01.871)

Yeah, I think he is, yes.

Andrew Gillis (15:04.366)

I pick Katz and Moritz.

Stefan Krajisnik (15:06.63)

I think is Ketsamore the face, is he the face of, he’s probably a five seat if like the 12 or 14 College football playoff existed in his era.

Stephen Means (15:07.781)

For the record.

Stephen Means (15:16.293)

Possibly I mean had 12 sacks of the freshman and for the record cats more thought the reason why 45 hasn’t been more It’s because of the guy who what got 98 % of the book. Let’s want to make okay, so we can’t but to Andrew’s point Cots more is here from 1996 to 1998 96 they go 11 and one 97 they go 10 and 3 so they might be they probably don’t get to the basketball playoff in 97 but 98 they go 11

Andrew Gillis (15:23.042)

Yeah, right. Yeah, I know.

Stephen Means (15:45.765)

So Andrew might be a 14 playoff. It still might’ve been hard because there were some years, Herb and Meyer had some teams go 11 and one. didn’t make the college football playoff, but especially now in a 12 team college football playoff, all three of those teams with Andy Katzmoyer make the college football playoff. And so, mean, listen, you got a point. It’s a good point to make. But Stefan, the answer to this Andrew’s question of is the run through Alabama enough? Yes.

Because it’s part of the, we just talked about how there’s not a single highlight video where they put out of Ohio State when they talk about the history where you don’t see Archie Griffin attached to it. Well, there’s not a highlight that you see about Ohio State where you don’t see 85 yards through the heart of the South attached to it. then so I am not, so far.

And voting will still continue to be open. It’s closing as people are listening to this. We’re just recording this in the middle of the day. 22 % of people have said Andy Katz and more 78 % have said Ezekiel Elliott. And I think it’s because 85 yards to the heart of South. I honestly think that has been the difference so far as Andy Katz and more had 12 sacks as a freshman. Andy Katz and more looks awesome. He looks like the prototypical 1990s linebacker with his physical bill, but also his gear.

but he doesn’t have an 85 yards to the heart of the South moment. He just has, I’m awesome moment. And he’s not the only player even in this region where I think that’s going to be true.

Stefan Krajisnik (17:23.174)

Yeah, there’s a there’s a world in which instead of voting bracket style, you literally write down 32 names and you tell everyone on a scale of one to 10. Here’s the five categories. And then you take all those average scores. Zeke’s going to have a pretty high average score just because the memorable moment, the Michigan success on field accolades, team accolades like it’s going to be pretty high for him. And for Katz and Moir, like if this is the category, like his average score is is knocked down a bit by Michigan success and by memorable moment. Not that, you know,

Stephen Means (17:35.011)

Yep. Yep.

Stefan Krajisnik (17:53.73)

Memorable moment can more so help someone than it can hurt someone like, you know, a linebacker, there’s limitations on what a memorable moment can be, right? Compared to like a running back. But it in the case of Zeke, it means it’s a 10 out of 10 in terms of memorable moment.

Stephen Means (18:10.531)

glad you picked Andy Katzmer though. Andrew, I think that creates a world where, well, no, I just think it’s a quality representation of also what our Texas were thinking, where the majority are picking Ezekiel Elliott, but it’s not a small minority of guys who are picking Andy Katzmer. Yeah, I think it’s fine to have that representation. That’s the 825 matchup. Two more matchups in this first region before we take a break.

Andrew Gillis (18:15.662)

You’re welcome.

Andrew Gillis (18:28.046)

with a big cat, baby.

Stephen Means (18:38.019)

And the reason I hinted at earlier, there’s more guys on this list where I think there’s having the full package of what we’re going for here versus just being an awesome football player. And that’s the number nine versus number 24 matchup, AJ Hawk versus Chase Young. I think Andrew, this is the same thing as what you just talked about. I think there is Chase Young. excuse me. Let me read some text from our Texas first.

From Andrew in the 330, this is Ezekiel Elliott text. It’s possible if Urban handles Zeke in the 2015 Michigan State game different, this might make a change to this conversation. Yeah, I think that team probably should have repeated as national champions. They repeat as national champions on the back of Ezekiel Elliott. He’s not the eight seed, he’s even higher. From the 8-6-0, hard to put anyone from this year’s Natty team on the list due to a lack of success against Michigan. If they’d been winning against Michigan the last few years, it’d be hard to not.

It’d be hard not to say Jack Soar for the 2020s given the big play moments and what he meant for this team’s culture. But unfortunately can’t have him on a list like this. I’m sure a lot of answers will come in with older guys, but I didn’t watch them play. So what fun is it to say they’re the greatest, but guys, I’m with that. Talk about the era you grew up loving. I’m going with my number one Zeke Elliott. Absolutely put this team on his back to stamp a new era of college football. And when the first ever playoffs, they don’t even sniff that title last year, that year.

Best, without him, best Buckeye I’ve seen. Combine that with the domination over Michigan in his career and you’ve got the greatest in at least the 2000s in my opinion. Okay, let’s move on to AJ Hawk and Che Cheung. Andrew, I’ll start with you. What’s your vote? AJ or Che Cheung and why?

Andrew Gillis (20:23.054)

It’s AJ. I think this is a tough matchup for Chase Young because I think Chase Young would have done better to have maybe like somebody from this year’s team. Like for example, like if Chase Young was going up against Emeka or maybe not Jack, but like somebody who kind of didn’t have

the Michigan success or something like that. like, for example, like if Chase Young was going up against Cassin Moir, like there’s a debate because you could then you could also say, well, blah, blah, blah. But A.J. Hawks teams also beat Michigan and dominated Michigan, like in the mid 2000s. Like they were also beating Michigan at that point, like, and they were beating good Michigan teams. Chase Young was incredible. And I think

This boils down to what we talked about Stephen. Best player or greatest Buckeye? Because I think if it’s a greatest players list. Chase Young’s no lower than like. Three. Maybe four or five like. That’s high, but I don’t know man. The lasting image I have of Chase Young’s Ohio State career is Wisconsin trying to triple team him.

because they knew that nobody could block him one-on-one and nobody could probably double team him well enough.

Stephen Means (21:52.995)

No, for sure. He’s also like the third iteration of Wisconsin’s trying to triple team him because nobody can block like Joey Bosa and Nick Bosa were that.

Andrew Gillis (22:00.724)

Yeah, sure. But Chase Young was also maybe the most dominant of all of those head rushers. And I, Chase to me, I think just doesn’t, like, I just like AJ Hawk here because like he didn’t, I mean, he didn’t really do anything in 2002. Yeah. But he was on the team. So it’s like, all right, do you give him credit for that? I don’t know. I’m not giving him a ton of credit if any.

Stephen Means (22:20.695)

No, he was a freshman. Yeah, that’s not

Stephen Means (22:29.517)

You don’t, it’s the same way you don’t give Peyton Pierce credit for 20.6.

Andrew Gillis (22:30.862)

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (22:34.554)

Right? Yeah, so like he does have a ring, but it doesn’t stack up. But like, mean, he was also a Big Ten defensive player the year AJ Hawk was a three time all Big Ten selection. First team all Big Ten selection. Like I think AJ Hawks like accolades. Maybe stand out a little bit more compared to chase and when you compare that. Let’s just say neither of them won a national championship.

because I know AJ did, but he wasn’t like on the field for it. Like even if you give chase young, the benefit of the doubt in that conversation, their careers are a little more similar than you would think. And I think AJ has a little bit more of the accolades and had a little bit more of the aura that you’re looking for here in this conversation.

Stefan Krajisnik (23:27.13)

There’s probably not the same level of on-field dominance that Chase Young had, but like A.J. Hawks is still up there among the best players. he’s still in top five in tackles program history. think he’s exactly fifth in career tackles, close to 400. And he had a year with 141 tackles, which is just crazy to think about. And that was in a 12-game span. Like, he was a pretty damn good player too, to where now if you start getting into some of the other categories,

Maybe he can give himself an edge in something like the book. I or a category that that’s why I went with AJ Hawk. He’s kind of become. Ohio State’s Desmond Howard more than anything like the pattern of his show is giving him that platform, but. He’s kind of become the voice that sometimes Ohio State needs in the kind of the mainstream media just because there’s a lot of people who dog on Ohio State in the mainstream media, so I think that’s kind of probably helped this case. The the post.

Stephen Means (24:07.205)

Can I go? Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (24:25.702)

playing career kind of stretch. think that’s helped AJ Hawk. So I went with him there. This was yeah, this was pretty close just because the on-field stuff was so good for Chase Young. It’s kind like we talk about JJ where we’re like, maybe he ends up never being a captain. But like, JJ is gonna be so good as long as he stays healthy over three years, it’s gonna be hard to keep him off. Like Chase Young was so good, especially his final season.

That it’s, hard to keep him out of this conversation, but I think AJ Hall kind of the totality of this competition is why I went his way.

Stephen Means (24:59.429)

I you guys are higher on Chaishan than the field, than I am or the Texas are. For starters, if Chaishan was going up against Jack Sawyer, given the language of what we’re talking about here, Jack Sawyer would blow him out of the water. And granted, if we were talking about best player, Chaishan would blow him out the water. So it would be a fun exercise to see.

I think it’s AJ Hawkins. Not necessarily close. Chaishan was awesome here. He won the Nagursky award, the Beneric award, the Ted Hendricks award. was a unanimous All-American. He was the Big Ten most valuable player in the Big Ten male athlete of the year. He was the Big Ten defensive player of the year. He was first team all Big Ten. That was all 2019. And in 2018, he was second team all Big Ten. We had 10 sacks. He was also the number two pick in the 2020 NFL draft. Cool.

He also set the record for most sex in single season was 60 and a half. Cool. He’s got memorable moments. The first Wisconsin game was the first time anybody said, Hey, should he be a Heisman trophy candidate? Then he had the suspension. Then he came back against Penn State and get it again. we’re like, Oh yeah, he should definitely be a Heisman trophy candidate. And he was one of the best players in college football that year. He was one of the probably the most dominant playing college football that year. And you know who can look at that resume and go,

Okay, the guy who won the Lombardi Award, the Jack Lambert trophy was unanimous All-American in 2005, was a Consensus All-American in 2004, the Big Ten Defensive Player of the Year and a three time All-Big Ten guy. just, have their resumes in terms of accolades. They equal each other out. They cancel each other out. And that’s what Chase is. He’s all accolades. He’s got a little bit of aura because when you’re sacking a quarterback for the fourth time,

and then you’re raising your hands in the air, it looks so cool. And he’s got the dredge popping out the back, he’s got the predator nickname, all that is cool. You know who had the blonde hair popping out the back of their helmet first? AJ and Bobby Carpenter and Anthony Slagle. They were a trio doing that. So Chase is not even the first person to have his hair popping out the back of his helmet. And they’re also, Chase is the ultimate version of what Ohio State was, and that was defensive ends at that time.

Stephen Means (27:19.161)

with Nick Bosa, Joey Bosa, Tyquan Lewis, Sam Hubbard, Jalen, I can’t remember his last name right now, but that was what they did, defensive lineman. Well, AJ Hawk was, AJ Hawk was the Nick Bosa to James Zoranaitis’ Chase Young. That’s what they did back then. They did linebackers back then and they were awesome at it. Chase Young was a top five NFL draft pick. So was AJ Hawk. He was the number five pick in the NFL draft in 2006.

If we want to go, who’s the better player? I don’t think that’s an easy conversation. I just think Chase is more recent than AJ Hawke is. Well, to your point, Stefan, AJ has been sitting in front of a microphone for the past five years.

Our texters had AJ Hawk 82 % to 18 % Chase Shaw. I agree with that. AJ is also a kid from Kettering, Ohio. While Chase is this national recruit, he’s what JJ is right now. He’s what Garrett Wilson was. National kid that is a five star recruit who’s gonna be here for three years and be awesome and then he’s out to go get off to the NFL. That doesn’t.

raise you on the greatest Buckeye scale. just hammers home the point that we thought you were gonna be good and you were good. So it wasn’t necessarily close. We had one close battle in this region and it’s Howard Hopalong Cassidy as the number 16 overall seed and Maurice Claret as the number 17 overall seed, which is good. You always want those seeds that are essentially one seed apart to be close. Howard Hopalong Cassidy was here from 1952 to 1955.

Maurice Claret only here for one year in 2002 and wins a national championship. Stefan, I wanna start with you.

Stephen Means (29:04.515)

and we’re going to show our age here. Hop along or Maurice.

Stefan Krajisnik (29:08.718)

Yeah, I’ll admit to probably having some recency bias in this one, but I went with with Maurice Claret. I think the moment is probably what carried me here and why I went with him. The play against Miami. It’s obviously always going to stand out in Ohio State history. On top of which, I think this kind of recent resurgence of his involvement in the program probably helps with that Buckeye aura, kind of everything that he went through, the fact that he’s wanted to come back and be such a

Stephen Means (29:17.273)

Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (29:35.716)

memorable part of another championship run, I think matters, right? Like he’s got two rings, because I’m sure they gave him one for this past run. So there’s a nice collection going for him. So yeah, I understand if there’s a texture who’s to come in and be like, you’re showing your age, you’re showing recency bias. I get it. I will admit that that probably played a part here. But Maurice Gorant’s a pretty dang good player with a pretty memorable moment to help him in this competition.

Stephen Means (29:39.973)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (30:04.952)

Andrew, are you gonna show your age too?

Andrew Gillis (30:08.878)

Yes, I am going to show my age, but I’m going to show my age in that the young people are defending the people of yesteryear. I’m going to pick Hopalong Cassidy. Yeah, I picked Katzenmoyer over Zeke. I picked Hopalong Cassidy over Maurice Claret. Yeah, I’m standing up for Buckeyes before the turn of the millennium. Look, I think...

Stephen Means (30:17.177)

But you have an old soul.

Andrew Gillis (30:36.878)

This was close and I’m glad that this turned out to be 16-17 because it truly felt like one of the tougher ones that you were going to have to, um, to debate. But I think it matters that Cassidy won a Heisman trophy. won the Maxwell award. He was the two time, um, player of the year.

Chick Harley Award, two time unanimous All-American, two time first team All-Big Ten, second team All-Big Ten. His numbers retired. Maurice Claret had one great year at Ohio State, and they do not win the national championship without Maurice Claret. And that’s not because of him running the ball. That’s also because one of his most memorable plays in that season was stripping the ball of Sean Taylor.

on the interception that Krenzel threw in the end zone. Like that is one of the craziest plays you’ve ever seen in a national championship game and it swung the game.

But he only had that one year. And I think Cassidy’s tenure, his longevity there matters. So while a lot of people listening to this did not get to watch, they did not get to see, I think the accolades and the stats and the history matter here with Claret, because frankly,

Claret’s tenure at Ohio State did not end well. And I think when you have one year and then you have a situation where you have a bunch of academic stuff, you know, the academic misconduct, he got suspended for the season. He then tries to get out of Ohio State early and go to the NFL draft. And that’s a whole other conversation. That’s a whole other deal. That’s a whole other thing that we can talk about. But

Andrew Gillis (32:40.716)

I think that that matters when you talk about this conversation and I Cassidy deserves that. He was a Heisman Trophy winner and his number is retired. I feel remarkably content taking that guy.

Stephen Means (32:59.589)

I think it’s okay to celebrate the redemptive story that has been Maurice Claret.

while also acknowledging that Howard Koppelonkassi never needed a redemption story.

Cause there’s a, if we do this five years ago, Maurice Clare’s name doesn’t even come up. And Andrew’s like, do we remember what he did in the national championship? He said, yes, Andrew. And then he also left after one and it got messy. And again, some of it, I don’t think it’s all his fault. Some of it is kind of ridiculous. It was showing where the NCAA was at that time. And some things have still not changed, but I do think it’s one of those things where it’s you played one year. So you get one game in the bracket while the other guy.

throughout his career and really his life, maybe exemplify what it meant to be a Buckeye. guess Maurice Claret’s a guy I want to check back in on in 10 years in a bracket like this. Because he’ll have been around the program a little bit more than just essentially 12 months. Howard Coppola on Cassidy gets 59 % of the votes and Maurice Claret gets 41 % of the votes. I think that’s about right. I think that’s how it should go. It’s a good way to say, hey, it’s been awesome. Whatever a dim-tum story, what an awesome moment he gave us.

but Howard Hopalong Cassidy is embedded in this team’s history in a way that needs for this to continue. Okay, so that’s region number one, and that was 30 minutes. So we’re gonna pick it up here when we come back from our break, first break. That’s region number one, the Jim Trestle region. We’ll move on to the Ryan Day region where we have a Heisman Trophy quarterback as its headliner when we come back from the break.

Stephen Means (34:38.809)

And we’re back here on Buckeye Talk, Stephen Means, Stephane Kreisick, and Andrew Gillis. Get the text 614-350-3315. This survey is going around right now as we discuss who the greatest Buckeye is in Ohio State history. We’re not just talking about these guys as the greatest players, though. We’re using a formula. It’s accolades and stats, team success, memorable moments, Michigan success slash failure, and overall Buckeye aura to decide who’s the guy you just 100 % can’t tell the story of Ohio State football.

without who are the guys. And now we’re into the Ryan day region where you’ve got two Glenville quarterbacks going head to head. Number two overall seed Troy Smith, who was here from 2003 to 2006, famously won the national champions, excuse me, won a Heisman trophy and got Ohio state to the national championship game in 2006 where they lost to its future head coach and a guy who’s actually the name of a region, urban Meyer down there in Florida. And then Cardell Jones famously in 2014 came off the bench.

Ohio State to a national championship game. And then he won the starting battle in 2015 to start the season before JT Barrett eventually took that and ended up getting drafted and playing in the NFL for a little bit. So this is feelings versus feelings, Stefan, I feel like. Though I do think there is a clear winner, but was the winner clear for you?

Stefan Krajisnik (36:00.58)

Yeah, was clear winner and it’s, there’s a little bit of irony to who I just voted for in the last one and who I’m voting for in this one. And Cardale Jones, as much as he has the moment, he doesn’t have the kind of totality of the resume and, and Wikipedia is sometimes reliable, sometimes not. If you open up Troy Smith’s Wikipedia compared to Cardale Jones, you go to the career highlights and awards list. Troy Smith’s goes on for quite a while. Cardale’s literally says CFP national championship.

Stephen Means (36:11.589)

Thank

Stefan Krajisnik (36:29.87)

national champion and that’s it. And that is a big, that’s it. But Troy Smith has a pretty deep resume here. And I will say Cardell, his involvement still probably helps him a bit and makes sense. Maybe somewhat of a conversation, right? Like Ohio State has transitioned into a completely new era of college football and college athletics. And Cardell Jones has played a pretty big part in helping Ohio State do that. So, credit him for that. That helps here. But the totality of what Troy Smith was and everything he accomplished.

Stephen Means (36:41.722)

Mm-hmm.

Stephen Means (36:53.22)

Mm-hmm.

Stefan Krajisnik (37:00.39)

I mean, that’s it’s hard to argue against that. That’s that’s book. I threw it through.

Stephen Means (37:05.636)

I think Cardell has a stronger relationship with the Ohio State football program right now than Troy Smith does. Cardell was involved with one of the NIL collective. think it’s the foundation that he’s involved with. I remember back in 2022 when Garrett Wilson and Chris Olavi were going through their pro day and CJ Stroud was throwing. Cardell Jones was the other quarterback who threw with CJ Stroud that day. Cardell is very much still around the program in a way that I don’t think Troy Smith really is right now, which is a little bit weird, but you’re right. It’s Andrew.

Cardell doesn’t have, he’s got incompletes everywhere else, right? He doesn’t necessarily have the accolades of stats. He’s never started against Michigan. So he can’t have a winner loss against Michigan as a starter. The memorable moments, it’s essentially a three game memorable moment of Gus Johnson going, wow, every five minutes, because he’s throwing deep balls all over the place and he’s got the team’s success because he won a national championship. But it’s just, I think that run is special in Ohio State’s history.

Because you’re right, they weren’t supposed to be there, and they were there, and they won it all. But then I think Cardell Jones, his involvement still with the program in some capacity, I think it’s partially the reason he made the bracket in the first place. While with Troy Smith, it’s like, he’s Ohio State’s last Heisman Trophy winner. We’re talking about all the awesome quarterback play we’re seeing right now. Well, Jim Trestles got the last Heisman Trophy winner, and he’s a Cleveland kid, which I think is pretty cool.

Andrew Gillis (38:18.894)

Okay.

Andrew Gillis (38:32.822)

Yeah, this is one of those matchups where it’s like, you know, you have a lower level school coming into play Ohio State and they show up and they run the ball really well and it’s 10 to seven. They’re winning. Ohio State’s losing at like the end of the first quarter, early second quarter. You’re like, what’s going on? And then the game ends 49 to 10. But the other team gave you a nice little punch and that’s what Cardale Jones does. He packs a nice little punch with the moment that he’s got but

The totality just overwhelms you with Troy Smith, Heisman Trophy, Davy O’Brien, Harley, Walter Camp, Archie Griffin, AP College Football Player of the Year, SN College Player of the Year, Quarterback of the Year, Unanimous All-American in 06, Big Ten Most Valuable Player in 06, Big Ten Offensive Player in 06, First Team All-Big Ten in 06. His year was incredible. And I know they lost, but he did lead them to a national championship game, 30 touchdowns, six picks. It’s Troy Smith.

Look, Cardale Jones deserves his deserves a lot of praise as do every player as does every player on this list, but it’s Tristman.

Stephen Means (39:42.341)

Trish Smith has 90 % of the votes. Those 30 touchdown passes were a record when he threw for him. And now we’re looking at Ohio State quarterbacks and going shame on you for not throwing at least 30%. This is crazy how time flies.

Stephen Means (39:57.869)

And now we have our first most recent Buckeye.

Jack Sawyer as the number seven seed versus Craig Krenzel, the number 26 seed. Craig Krenzel was here from 1999 to 2003, famously was the starting quarterback when Ohio State won the national championship in 2002. Jack Sawyer, an Ohio kid who committed to, he was Ryan Day’s first ever commitment, got here as a five-star recruiting 2021, left as a national championship, champion winner in 2024. Andrew, I don’t think this is a conversation.

think Jack Sawyer’s moving on.

Andrew Gillis (40:35.586)

The only thing it’s a conversation about is the moment because like I said, with Michael Jenkins, there’s going to be a lot of people who will argue that Holy Buck Eye is a bigger, more memorable play in Ohio State history than the scoop in Sawyer, the Jack Sawyer touchdown. and that’s a totally fair point to make.

Stephen Means (40:52.281)

Who’s saying that?

Andrew Gillis (40:55.434)

What? That... I think if we polled a lot of people, I think there’s a lot of people who will say, holy Buckeye, number one over Jack Sawyer’s touchdown.

Stephen Means (40:56.451)

I don’t think that’s true at all.

Stephen Means (41:05.783)

I don’t...

Andrew Gillis (41:08.024)

But the point that I’m making with that is that’s the only place that’s a debate because you get by that. They both won a national championship. Like, yeah, Crenzel had the I guess Crenzel had the Michigan success. Like the accolades and like the stats are just they’re not really comparable with Crenzel and Sawyer. I think it’s Jack in in a pretty significant win. But the Crenzel look, he had his moment. He had a great play.

with the holy buck guy and there were plays in the national championship game and things like that. So if you wanna argue the moments with that, that’s fine. But that is the only place that I think you could go with Krenzel. So that’s why it’s Jack.

Stephen Means (41:51.449)

I have a hot take.

Stephen Means (41:57.231)

I think Holy Puck Eye is drastically overrated when we’re talking.

Andrew Gillis (42:03.95)

Okay. Okay.

Stefan Krajisnik (42:06.052)

That’s the case, wasted a name. That could have been used for something better then.

Stephen Means (42:11.461)

That’s my point. That’s why I think it’s over. If Brent, if Brent Musburger doesn’t say a holy buck off.

Stephen Means (42:20.184)

Is it still talked about?

Stefan Krajisnik (42:24.944)

Probably, but probably not as much.

Stephen Means (42:26.627)

That’s my point. And so I’m not taking away from the play and how big of a deal it was to get the completion. But that’s not the first time we’ve seen a play like that in football where you gotta have it. It’s like fourth in something and somebody completes it. But I think Brent Musburger saying, holy buckeye is what made it legendary. And that’s as much on an elite play by play caller.

Andrew Gillis (42:27.47)

I think so.

Stephen Means (42:53.411)

being elite in that moment as it was on the actual moment. Jack Sawyer’s scoop and score is all about Jack Sawyer. It’s fourth and goal. And the quarterback on the other side is supposed to be Ohio State’s quarterback. Because with all due respect, it’s still Purdue that Holy Buckeyes against. That’s not against a Michigan team or a.

national championship continuing team. It’s just a team in Purdue who has historically found a way to be a thorn in Ohio State’s size at the worst possible times. This is Texas in Dallas, Texas against a quarterback from Texas who was supposed to be your quarterback and it’s your hometown kid who had his first moment robbed from him?

because we’re forgetting about the Michigan interception, which in itself is tampered down because they lost. The whole thing of 83 yards to the heart is the scoop and score is just such a bigger deal than a holy buckeye is. Holy buckeye is about a media member doing his job.

and making them, no, and capturing it. Why? It’s called holy buckeye, which is what he said.

Andrew Gillis (44:08.462)

I just disagree about the name being the reason.

Andrew Gillis (44:15.35)

Yeah, but we’re calling Yeah, but isn’t it possible that there so what basically what you’re arguing is, if it had a less cool name, it wouldn’t be as talked about because people would probably ascribe a name to it. Because they like we did for the scoop and Sawyer like, didn’t go the scoop and Sawyer for the touchdown. didn’t do that. So we put the name on

Stephen Means (44:29.125)

For sure, but you Right right, but you you put a name on something so we can talk about it But it’s like the name is it the name is the moment the moment is he said holy buckeye when he completed the past

Andrew Gillis (44:44.566)

Yeah, of course. but he gave it the name. The play was still it saved Ohio State’s season.

Stephen Means (44:51.309)

It’s a cool, but OK, but there’s plenty of plays throughout history that have saved Ohio State seasons. There’s plenty of plays in history that save people’s seasons all the time. What?

Andrew Gillis (44:57.678)

could the Sawyer play didn’t save Ohio State’s season. Holy buck I saved Ohio State’s season. That’s the argument they’re making.

Stephen Means (45:04.621)

No, but the context around the entire play is so much why it’s more magnified.

Because if he doesn’t complete, let’s just say Ohio State doesn’t complete that pass.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:17.482)

I think in the context of the scuba story is his name is not on here if he doesn’t make that play. And now he’s a seven seed.

Stephen Means (45:25.209)

Bingo.

Stefan Krajisnik (45:26.138)

That’s how massive that moment was for one guy. Because everything about Jack Sawyer suggests he deserves to be in this bracket and high in this bracket. If he doesn’t make this play, we don’t even do this bracket because he’s the one who inspired the bracket for us. That’s how big that play was.

Stephen Means (45:44.015)

Bingo.

Andrew Gillis (45:47.53)

I don’t, he, think he still might be on the bracket. But he’s not as high. He’s not as high. He’s 100 % not as high.

Stephen Means (45:49.657)

But he’s fine. Okay, fine. But he’s...

Stefan Krajisnik (45:50.31)

I don’t think a guy with no national title and no wins against Michigan, I don’t think he makes the top 32.

Stephen Means (45:57.047)

and no break 10 championship and he’s a fourth round draft pick. Yeah, no at best Jack sword is number 32 and it’s cause he’s from Ohio. And even then I think I agree with you step on. I don’t think he makes that’s that’s what we’re talking about. Holy Buckeye is a great play. I’m not taking away from it. I don’t think it belongs in the same conversation as plays that directly against national championship contending teams.

led to a national title and just like pulled on the emotion like holy buckeye’s not even the best player that season it’s not even the most memorable play of that year the scoop is soya is the most memorable play of this season the most it’s that and then it’s third and jeremiah

Stephen Means (46:48.133)

85 yards to the heart of the South is the most memorable play of the 2014 season. There are multiple plays in the national championship game in 2002 that I think are more memorable. It doesn’t mean that it’s not an important play, but when we’re talking about memorable plays in Ohio State history, a fourth down, fourth and long conversion against a team that you should not been in a competition, a competitive game with anyway, does not make the list for me.

And I know that there are people who no, no, no, no, no, that’s part of the point because that’s why Craig Krenzel’s here. It’s where he has a chance to, cause they both have national championships. Neither one of them, we would say are one of the five best players on their national championship team. This is it. This is their memorable moments are where the conversation is. And for Craig Krenzel, it’s fourth and long against Purdue in a game where

Andrew Gillis (47:18.19)

We’ve veered off course from criminal versus story, but...

Stephen Means (47:44.953)

Wasn’t the score like six to three or something at that point? Versus Jack Sawyer making, first of all, he made the play beforehand that led the fourth and goal anyway, because he’s the guy who got the pressure on Quinn. But Jack, that’s all Jack. There was no Brent Musburger, holy buckeye. There was no Malcolm Jink, excuse me, Michael Jenkins helping him out. no. This is Jack Sawyer one, one on one. Got the sack, got the scoop.

and then ran 85 yards the other way. That’s all Jack, there’s no help from anybody. He made that moment happen.

think this is close at all. And our Texas kind of agree. He got 79 % of the vote and Craig Crenzel got 21 % of the vote. And I think he got 21 % of the vote because he was the quarterback of a national championship team and Jack Sawyer lost to Michigan four years in

Stefan Krajisnik (48:38.756)

Yeah, a couple more things, which probably mentioned on Jack kind of why he inspired this. He, I don’t want to say he saved the recruiting class, like Ohio state, Ohio state had to deal with something that never happened before, at least in modern history in terms of recruiting in the midst of a pandemic. Like that, that was a whole nother thing that Jack’s already helped with. I think that’s what’s going to help him on this list. Also, like, I think it’s like,

Stephen Means (48:48.151)

He’s the reason it existed.

Stefan Krajisnik (49:04.046)

As we talk about scooping Sawyer, as we talk about the national championship, the losses against Michigan, all that, like the run he went on in the playoff. In terms of defensive end is maybe comparable to like Zeke’s run in the playoff. And like Jack Soren is one of the top 10 sec leaders in Ohio state history for a school that’s produced defensive end after defensive end. Obviously games play to help some out, you know, in a, in a quantitative category like that, but

Stephen Means (49:18.693)

Yeah.

Stefan Krajisnik (49:33.636)

We can’t forget that the run he went on in the playoff. Jack Sawyer was pretty dominant as a player on field too, so he’s got the memorable and all that like he’s got all that off the field stuff that aura the the memorable moment like that kind of stuff. But like the on field accolades he kind of blows out Craig Kerns.

Stephen Means (49:52.687)

I don’t think there’s a single category other than Michigan that Craig Krenzel wins. And it’s pretty prominent for me. I, I like Holden Buckeye. It’s a great play in Ohio State history. I don’t want to take away from him, but it’s just, we’re trying to differentiate here. And I do think there are tears with things. And fourth and long against Purdue, when you probably shouldn’t have been in that type of competitive game anyway, versus doing that on the, essentially a road game in a-

College football playoffs, semi-final? That’s clear in the water for me, okay.

Stefan Krajisnik (50:27.558)

Yeah, the new era is gonna help some guys to where it’s like a memorable play in the play like the Purdue game In that era like every game was a playoff game because you kind of have to go on like Purdue like it was a play whether it should have been a game or not it it was a de facto playoff game but Doing it in an actual playoff game is is gonna help some guys out

Stephen Means (50:30.318)

Yeah.

Stephen Means (50:35.907)

That’s True.

Stephen Means (50:47.537)

Yeah, that’s fair. Ohio State didn’t lose and they couldn’t lose back then. They weren’t going to go to the National Championship game. So that does help it, playoff helps. But again, Jack Sawyer got 79 % of the vote. James Laurinaitis as the 10th seed versus Marvin Harrison Jr. as the number 23 seed. Marv’s awesome, but I think this is James.

Stefan Krajisnik (51:12.794)

Yeah, it’s probably pretty quick discussion here. Shout out to Marv because he had everything in his corner to just kind of be a Come here be great leave and just be a great player with a great name and a great legacy But like he has he has stuck around with the program and he has like worn Ohio State on his sleeve Probably because he wasn’t you know a five-star everything recruit but like people kind of assume he was just because he’s Marvin Harrison jr. Of course, he was always good not not always viewed that way but

He’s done a good job of kind of being a Buckeye for player that probably had everything in this corner to kind of just leave and not be if he didn’t want to be. So shout out to him for that. But James Lawrence, Lauren Isis on the sideline right now too, and that’s going to help him a bit. And he was just a great player. Yeah, yeah, which also helps.

Stephen Means (51:56.513)

And it was a three time All-American. Andrew, you want to make a case for Marv? He’s your first superstar here.

Andrew Gillis (52:05.302)

No, I’m good. James. Yeah, I don’t want to. I don’t want to have that debate because there isn’t one. I think Marv was a great player and like you do wonder about Marv like, OK, what happens if they beat Michigan in twenty three? If they beat Michigan in twenty three, we’re talking about Marvin Harrison Jr. who has like a genuine shot at the Heisman.

Stephen Means (52:07.279)

You

Stephen Means (52:25.561)

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (52:34.821)

and an Ohio State team that’s in the college football playoff. it’s like, okay, if one of Ohio State wins the national title in 2023 and Marv is a Heisman Trophy winning receiver, like then, then you have the conversation, but you don’t, right.

Stefan Krajisnik (52:47.45)

I think part of what hurts him is that he didn’t beat Michigan.

Stephen Means (52:50.319)

I think that, I think if that was his resume, he wouldn’t be playing James or not as in the first round, that’s for sure. I still think I would pick James.

Andrew Gillis (52:51.746)

That’s exactly it.

Stephen Means (53:02.349)

If they. Yeah, I think he’d have a stronger case versus James got 83 % of the vote. I think that would have been more like James got 67 % of the vote, but I still think James might win because he’s just that important. And again, for whatever it’s worth, the fact that he is now the linebackers coach and the linebackers is awesome and the recruiting Andrew is awesome. That kind of helps them as well. OK, this is our most competitive one yet.

Stefan Krajisnik (53:02.502)

Pretty hard to pick against James in most contexts.

Stephen Means (53:30.309)

15C Jack Tatum, safety here, 1968 to 1970, he was a part of the Super Softs. And Chris Carter, 1984 to 1986, he is the genesis of what we now know the Ohio State wide receiver room to be, modern day. This is where it starts, there’s almost a before and Chris Carter after, Chris Carter effect here, we’re talking about Ohio State wide receivers.

What do think, Andrew?

Andrew Gillis (54:00.022)

Damn, I was kind of hoping somebody else was gonna get to make their case first so I could figure it out. Because I still am not sure. This was hard. And I think there’s a lot of people who will look at the NFL success that Chris Carter has had and maybe let that weigh you. if you look at his NFL success, like...

Stephen Means (54:04.165)

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (54:24.302)

He was an all pro and a pro bowler this amount of times and he did all these great things and yeah. But like I think like the like it’s reasons he bias and then there’s a list of accolades with Chris Carter. Jack Tatum. I had a hunch with him and I wanted to have somebody else go first, so I’m going to take Jack Tatum. I want.

Stephen Means (54:30.085)

I mean, Jack Tatum’s in the hall of fame.

Stephen Means (54:49.007)

Okay, let’s do this then. Stefan, you’ve already voted. Tell us who you voted for. Okay, here’s what we’ll do. I’m gonna give Andrew some grace here, because I also don’t know who I wanna-

Stefan Krajisnik (54:56.014)

I voted for Jack Tatum.

Andrew Gillis (54:57.656)

Yeah.

Andrew Gillis (55:00.982)

Yeah. Well, the thing that pushed me over the top, two-time national champion, that was what did it.

Stephen Means (55:06.287)

Okay.

Let’s take a break and let’s go through the other. When I say this is close, I keep refreshing the voting and it’s going back and forth who’s winning. So let’s take a break. Let’s look at these other regions. And then Andrew and I can come back and decide that we still want to take Jack Tatum because I am privy to take Jack Tatum, but I’m not 100 % sure I want to take Jack Tatum. So let’s take a break and then we can move on to.

I we’ll move on to the Paul Brown region when we come back to the break here on Market to Talk.

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